Their 2015 Touareg's engine was severely damaged by the water, and the only option for the owner was a total engine rebuild. Then dealers will see the diesels sit on their lots for longer, pushing prices down. It has a classy interior, impressive handling, and fantastic towing capacity. As far as the car achieving what the company set out to do with this new model, they succeeded in creating that feeling of excitement within their audience. The smooth ride and composure of this crossover delivers a driving experience that is unlike most other vehicles in the class. Fortunately, that owner wasnt hurt, and when they got their car to a mechanic, the mechanic said that the 2010 Touareg experienced a fuel pump problem. What We Like. Here are the top Volkswagen Touareg listings for sale ASAP. Very spacious. Can I Put Rubicon Tires And Rims On A Sport Wrangler? Privacy Policy | Terms and Conditions | Copyright Policy. Probably Japanese. Volkswagen is well-known for two things, making great cars and, unfortunately for VW, Dieselgate. Upgraded air conditioning and heated rear seats added $1,500, and xenon headlights were $850. The Toureg looked like a good compromise for on and off road but it is too unreliable to take any distance aware from a major centre. cars than any other brand, said George Augustaitis, director of industry analytics for CarGurus, an online car marketplace. Engine hoses, fuel lines, and gas flanges prematurely broke down or cracked easily. There are a lot of electronic do-dads, all very nice to have but the reliability of a great number of them is/hes been less than stellar, with the majority of touaregs having to return to the dealers numerous times during their first year. Well, I found this in spades with the VW Touareg. As it turns out, there are still plenty of brand-new Touaregs sitting on dealer lots just waiting for buyers. In 2014, a base Jetta diesel started at $23,195, while the gasoline model started at $16,720. Power Valuation Services. This list is a great resource for both vintage Volkswagen Touaregs and more contemporary ones as well. If I go country I take my 30 year old classic as it is more reliable. Related: 6 Best & Worst Volkswagen Atlas Years (With Facts & Stats), https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/volkswagen/touareg, https://www.carcomplaints.com/Volkswagen/Touareg/, https://www.carproblemzoo.com/volkswagen/touareg/, https://www.edmunds.com/used-volkswagen-touareg/, https://www.jdpower.com/cars/2017/volkswagen/touareg. Most of the examples aged. The worst model year for the Volkswagen Atlas is the 2018 model, it has received the highest number of complaints and the most severe issues. [2023], Lexus GX 460: The Reliable SUV That Stands the Test of Time [2023], Toyota Tundra Reliability: A Comprehensive Guide by Generation and Year [New For 2023], Toyota RAV4 V6 Engine Problems: Common Complaints You Need to Know, Are Acura SUVs Reliable? The Volkswagen Touareg may be perfect for many, but theres no such thing as a flawless vehicle. Front vehicle photos 1986-2018 Autodata, Inc. dba Chrome Data. I had a VW Superbug in the 70's which nealy sent me broke with heads going and I swore never another VW. By Satisfied Customer from Grand Rapids, MI, New car and Certified Pre-Owned programs by, MY 2016-MY 2017 vehicles/75,000 miles; MY 2018- MY 2019 vehicles/72,000 miles; MY 2020 and newer vehicles/75,000 miles, Vehicles purchased on or after 1/5/21: MY 2017 & older, 2 yrs/24,000 miles (whichever is 1st) limited warranty; MY 2018-19, 1 yr/12,000 miles (whichever is 1st) limited warranty; MY 2020 & newer, 2 years/24,000 miles (whichever is 1st) limited warranty, 2007-2010 Volkswagen Touareg: Recall Alert. Allison Dugdale spends six hours a day behind the wheel, so when the time came for a new car in 2014, she focused on comfort, efficiency and durability. This is based on auto industry reviews, NHTSA statistics, reported problems, and consumer feedback. Why would anyone want a disgraced diesel? This is to be somewhat expected as it was the first model year to go on sale in the US. But for some, the Touareg grandfathered that movement. However, cars are not perfect and more issues will pop up as the car gets older. For example the Touareg, you can look at the different categories and see what years rated the worst overall or in particular categories. Volkswagen Touareg Reliability by Model Generation | TrueDelta Touareg Overall Reliability Volkswagen Touareg Reliability by Model Generation Show details See stats for powertrain and chassis repairs Return to top See TSBs for the 2011 2023 Volkswagen Touareg See recalls for the Volkswagen Touareg Heavy solid vehicle which does lead to limited tire life on secondary roads generally 16,000 to 18,000 miles. We have people flying from Texas, Florida, the Eastern states, he said. Volkswagen Touareg Reliability And Durability: Neutral. The only criticism I get, Mr. Cieslak said, is Ive been vegan for five years, so people say, Oh you care about the planet, but youre killing the ozone?, Piled Up in Huge Lots, Volkswagens Reworked Diesels Trickle to Buyers, https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/22/business/volkswagen-diesel-vw-tdi-resales.html. It helped that Touaregs basic platform also was used for the Porsche Cayenne and Audi Q7, which are considerably more expensive than the Touareg, so VW reaped some nice technology that otherwise would not have been cost-effective to develop. The Touareg, hands-down trounced our previous suvs when it came to handling, performance and comfort. VW Touareg (2013-2014 . Bottom line - although the tow limit is 7500 lbs, trying to power normal US trailers causes the computer to go haywire. Ford Fiesta. As one owner said, that price tag essentially meant that they were buying a new car. California consumers may exercise their CCPA rights here. In these segments, VW was the only diesel player in the game, said David Paris, executive analyst at J.D. Its been really good to me. A lot of changes were made for this model year to improve performance, fuel economy, and rear passenger space. If you're looking to find out what the coolest Volkswagen Touaregs are then you're in the right place. It hurt doing it. For the same reasons they wanted one before the scandal: economy. The Touareg has an excellent record in our reliability surveys and, in the most recent one in which it appeared in, it finished in first place in the luxury SUV class. The other owners who reported similar issues had somewhere between 60,000 to 70,000 miles on their odometers. Again, while there arent overwhelming reports of problems overall, the 2007 model year is the worst, according to Car Complaints. 2017 Volkswagen Touareg And at that, its still about $2,000 more than it was in 2003. Do you think the greatest Volkswagen Touareg is not towards the top of the list? Demand is surprisingly high, dealers say. Volkswagen sales rebounded from the depths of 2015, and the carmaker has even embraced the scandal, nodding to it in a recent ad for its coming electric cars, with the tagline, in the dark, we found the light., New owners say they have experienced little more than good-natured ribbing from friends. I could tell you the cars have been sitting two years, said Rob Barcellona, pre-owned sales manager at Flemington VW, Audi, Porsche in Flemington, N.J. Every vehicle we see needs brakes and tires. Mr. Probst, who said he served on Volkswagens Certified Pre-Owned board, questioned Volkswagens official count of 100,000 TDIs. 46. Fuel economy estimates for combined driving hover around 16 to 20 miles per gallon, depending on driving habits. Mr. Heilbraun found a 2015 Golf with 38,000 miles on it for about $11,500, a huge savings over what it would have cost new. The 2007 Touareg earns a really awful rating because of the cost to repair. If youre thinking about parking a Volkswagen Touareg in your driveway this year, theres one model year that you might consider avoiding. Bump the Touareg problem graphs up another notch. It handles and performs like a sports car, it rides and feels like a luxury suv, it tows like a full size truck, it performs admirably off road, and It has stunning looks without being pretentious.. This car is one of the companys first-generation models, but it was decided they could take a second look at it and see if they could make any modifications that would greatly improve it. What Are The Best Years For The Volkswagen Touareg? Say what you will about the Touareg - it was too expensive, it didn't have a third row, or it wasn't reliable enough - but this humble SUV became the groundwork upon which the Porsche Cayenne, Audi Q7, Bentley Bentayga, and Lamborghini Urus were all built upon, so there's no denying its importance. An electric fault causing max speed 65 km/h. The 2008 Volkswagen Touareg R50 replaced the 2007 Volkswagen Touareg R32, which was extremely popular when it was released. Despite it being a standard, practical vehicle with few bells and whistles, some elements increased the quality and demand. When purchasing a car, especially a classic Volkswagon, you want the best so you know it will last and wont cost you thousands of dollars in repairs. Going in, there were questions: Did Volkswagen need to be in this market? It may be wise to avoid the 2007 Touareg altogether. The poor performance of the engine and the harm to the environment that the emissions did lead to Volkswagen removing the 2004 Touareg V10 TDI from its lineup. It only was sold for a limited time and was later recalled because of its harm to the environment. This cost them $4,330. Out of the five reported noise complaints, three owners ended up replacing the drive shafts altogether. For more information on how we collect and use this information, please review our Privacy Policy. The two complaints that led to this rating reported having to replace the timing chain and assembly, costing almost $7,000. Worst 2005 Volkswagen Touareg Problems #1: Drive Shaft Bearing Support Failed 2005 Touareg Average Cost to Fix: $800 Average Mileage: 110,000 mi #2: Head Light Wire Burned 2005 Touareg. This car has been driven for years with virtually no problems. She received an additional $6,631.73 in restitution. I am an Amazon Associate. Get notified about new defects, investigations, recalls & lawsuits for the. We use cookies to analyze & improve your experience, & to personalize content and ads. For some reason, water could get into the air filter of the 2015 Touareg, according to Car Complaints. Volkswagen said it intended to sell the last of the diesels by mid-2020. Being because its so heavy, the Touareg eats up tires pretty fast. With so many gadgets, I worry about the reliability.and VW does get dinged for reliability in CR. Outside of Volkswagens TDIs, diesels remain largely the territory of trucks and luxury vehicles. Options included a $2,980 package with leather upholstery, power seats, memory mirrors and a parking distance alarm. As a subscriber, you have 10 gift articles to give each month. The interior buttons and switches get sticky and start to peel over the years but thats a VW thing. The list of reports may sound long, but most were isolated with fewer than five Touareg owners reporting for each. A unique cosmetic feature that this vehicle displayed was a W12 badge on the back, hence giving the new model its name. But public memory appears to be short. Volkswagen fans are loyal to their favorite models, often owning more than one in their lifetimes. Currently the Volkswagen Touareg has a score of 7.7 out of 10, which is based on our evaluation of 52 pieces of research and data elements using various sources. I liked them then, but I couldnt afford one.. 6 Best & Worst Volkswagen Atlas Years (With Facts & Stats), Tire pressure monitoring system (TPMS) does not work, Exterior door handles get stuck, will not open door, Water in air filter compartment pulling in engine, Voice activated navigation system not working, TDI (Turbocharged Direct Injection) failure, Failure of brake pedal switch for cruise control, TPMS (Tire Pressure Monitoring System) light turns on. If you notice this car, see the price tag and move on because its a VW; youre doing yourself an injustice. Even with the V-6, though, this isnt a cheap SUV: Base price was $37,990, and as-tested price was $43,990. Heres The Short Answer To What The Best And Worst Years For The Volkswagen Touareg Are: What Are The Best Years For The Volkswagen Touareg? will help you decide. The average annual repair cost is $937 which means it has poor ownership costs. Unlike others here, my experience has been very positive over 60,000 miles. As an Amazon Associate, I earn from qualifying purchases. It will have no problem pulling your motorhome or trailer. Research the 2007 Volkswagen Touareg at Cars.com and find specs, pricing, MPG, safety data, photos, videos, reviews and local inventory. The least expensive example we saw was marked from $51,050 down to $34,370. The best Volkswagen Touareg model years are 2017, 2015, 2011, 2010, and 2007. Front vehicle photos 1986-2018 Autodata, Inc. dba Chrome Data. It comes in 3 trim levels, all of which are powered by an efficient V6 engine with 280 horsepower. The best Volkswagen Touareg model years are 2017, 2015, 2011, 2010, and 2007. The car now had 444HP, 443 lb-ft of torque, and could go from 0 to 60 in 5.8 seconds. Mileage is 16 to 18 on highway at higher than posted speeds. The others shared that their replacements were limited to the drive shaft support mounts or bearings. Faulty seals and filters, taking in rainwater/flooding footwell. The 2019 model is the second-worst year although it is notably less problematic. All rights reserved. On one hand, as the diesels become scarce around January 2020 prices will rise, he said. Example: "Bad Brakes", "Toyota Recall", etc. Copyright 2023 Endgame360 Inc. All Rights Reserved. They come in asking for TDIs.. Fun car to own. The stench of the gas leakage also bled into the vehicle interior, leading to obnoxious odors inside the vehicle that were difficult to eliminate. Im a guy with a lifelong passion for four-wheel drive vehicles. Recall campaigns were instituted but not all repairs and replacements were executed in a timely manner, leaving a bad taste in the mouths of numerous owners. EPA-rated fuel mileage, 16 miles per gallon city and 20 mpg highway, is nothing to brag about but not bad for a vehicle this size. Before the fixed Volkswagens can be resold, the cars have to be modified to meet the terms of the consent decrees with state and federal agencies. Our We were shocked to see several dealerships selling their Touareg inventory at or near its original MSRP - perhaps they simply don't want to get rid of them. Members of a private TDI Facebook group declined to comment, citing the backlash they encounter when they stand up for their beloved diesels. When I was vehicle shopping a few months ago, I was looking at 2016/2017 Wolfsburgs but decided on another manufacturer. Starting msrp listed lowest to highest price. This was linked to water accumulation in the engine air box, drenching components such as the air filter. Here are total complaints by model year for the Volkswagen Touareg. Volkswagen refuses to warranty this known problem.. View details. Quiet and luxury feel.. Yes, Volkswagen did need to be in this market, because loyal VW customers who wanted an SUV were leaving the brand. When you look at what Volkswagen is doing in certified pre-owned sales, they have added more share in C.P.O. Drive shafts, leaking engine seals, EGR valves, leaking sump plug, mirrors not working, hand brake buzzer going on and off, engine warning lights going on one day off the next. Now that VW has fixed all Dieselgate-related issues with its 3.0-liter V6 TDI engines, we even found a few 2016 model Toureg TDI models for sale with around $10,000 off MSRP. While the 2004 Touareg V10 TDI has the appearance of a dainty, sleek, and luxurious vehicle, its engine would say otherwise. ), but after 14 years and 200k miles, we are pretty happy with it. Weve sold more TDIs back into the market than we took in as buybacks, said Chad Probst, general manager of Vorderman Volkswagen in Fort Wayne, Ind. And yes, VW executives did their homework, beginning with a field trip in 1998 to the brutal Ocala National Forest. The proud Touareg, with their camel caravans and their mysterious veils, embody the idea of limitless freedom under mercilessly tough conditions of the desert.. These VW Touareg years have had many modifications and enhancements as new models have been manufactured, making them popular vehicles. Front vehicle photos 1986-2018 Autodata, Inc. dba Chrome Data. Volkswagen Touareg 3.0 TDI V6 Altitude Tiptronic 4WD Euro 5 (s/s . The diesel Touareg packs a 3.0-liter twin-turbo V6 with 240 hp and 406 lb-ft of torque with over 7,700 pounds of towing capacity. This car has major reliability issues. The 2011 Volkswagen Touareg has a 3 Liter V6 engine that was extremely popular at the time. Click on the graph bars for more details about a specific model year. It has a lot of variety in terms of trim levels, engine options, and drivetrains. Volkswagen hasn't offered a "new" Touareg since 2017 but we decided to do some digging on the internet. Even though the Toureg is officially gone, it's not too late to go buy what is a seriously good SUV. Three dependable engine options are offered: V6 Gasoline, V6 Turbodiesel, and a newly-introduced Hybrid engine. Volkswagen Touareg by Year. The 2005 Touareg W12 is perhaps one of the most desirable models of vehicle that Volkswagen has produced. The 2011 Touareg is a great choice, and this is reflected in the excellent customer feedback scores. The brakes are rusted, and the tires are dry-rotted. Batteries, windshield wipers, filters and fluids are commonly replaced, and sometimes shift cables are too. Not long after, Volkswagens diesel scandal came to light, dealing a huge blow to the company and leaving car owners like Ms. Dugdale in the lurch. And as for that name: VW says the vehicle is named after a traditional African desert tribe that has made a name for itself trading precious goods. Reliability has been excellent no issues noted. Thats why when the tensioner failed, some 2007 Touareg owners had to pay a very high price to get their car fixed. Assume those links are affiliate links which means I may earn a commission if you click and buy. . Consumer prices may yet rise, said Mr. Augustaitis at CarGurus. That said, this was a very common problem that affected many owners, according to Car Complaints. The tires were from the Volkswagen catalog, meaning they are all-terrain so your vehicle is ready for your off-roading adventures. Some cited concerns about their exterior paint wearing prematurely. Heres a look at the Volkswagen Touareg and some of the most expensive issues it may have. Only successfully completed repairs are currently included in the analysis. Overly sensitive electronics and sensors. Its exterior cosmetics are impressive as well. Check out our Volkswagen Touareg overview to see the most problematic years, worst problems and most recently reported complaints with the Touareg. Thanks to mostly minor refinements, this may still be the best all-around SUV, three years after its introduction. Touareg has long been rated one of the worst quality cars sold in the states. Surprisingly fast for a heavy SUV. Other 2007 Touareg owners reported other engine problems that, unfortunately, led to some accidents. Radio works well though. The 2016 Touareg had a total of 5 complaints at CarComplaints.com and 46 problems at CarProblemZoo.com. Again, while there aren't overwhelming reports of problems overall, the 2007 model year is the worst, according to Car Complaints. When properly equipped, this model can tow up to approximately 7,700 pounds, significantly greater than several of its direct competitors. After owning over two dozen cars in my lifetime, the TReg was my favorite. Overall, the average cost to repair was slightly over $1,000. On the other hand, the rising prices will slow demand, especially as the better, low-mileage cars are sold. Brakes are excellent but require more frequent replacement than typical. Prior to the Touareg, I drove Audi A6 bi-turbo and A4 for nearly 11 years. It seems all of the TDI owners have the same opinion: I dont want to give up my TDI, he said. Which comes back to economy. Ambient light that fits your mood. "CarComplaints.com" , "Autobeef", "What's Wrong With YOUR Car?" The complaints are organized into groups with data published by vehicle, vehicle component, and specific problem. LONG TERM REVIEW: Despite the increase in popularity for electric-SUVs, our #Volkswagen #Touareg is proving diesel isnt dead>> https://t.co/emWJGozUrF pic.twitter.com/DMZyCyrSWW. A hybrid model is also offered but is not reviewed as favorably as its gas-powered counterparts. Reacquired Volkswagen and Audi diesel cars, bought back by Volkswagen after its scandal, sat last year in a desert graveyard near Victorville, Calif. For more information on how we collect and use this information, please review our Privacy Policy. I loved it up until the time I realized I wouldnt be able to keep it because they broke the law in a huge, immoral, scandalous kind of way, said Ms. Dugdale, a sales representative for a produce supplier whose car loan was paid off in a buyback. He said his dealership was selling 50 to 60 of the diesel VWs a month, close to 1,000 total since the buyback. Audi, Porsche and VW all out of same factory so not sure about their reliability. In terms of post-fix, Mr. Paris said, you can get a diesel at prices similar to a gas model., Even at a previous job as a Volkswagen technician, Alex Cieslak couldnt find a VW diesel in his price range before the buyback. This model offers confident handling, an upscale interior, and respectable off-road capability. A post shared by Volkswagen (@volkswagen) on Mar 20, 2020 at 9:12am PDT. In more extreme cases owners reported explosions and complete loss of power. People rarely complain about this car because they havent had many issues with it yet. Fortunately, though, nobody was killed. Consumer Reports recommends avoiding the 2011 and 2012 models completely, but reliability issues continued with '13 and '14 model years. Recall: Dodge Durango Rear Spoilers Could Fall Off, read stories from drivers who praise our work. This list includes 2006 Volkswagen Touareg, 2008 Volkswagen Touareg 2 and more. Some even stated that gas would run out almost immediately after filling the tank fully. This particular model is extremely interesting because the original model was supposed to be a limited edition. Check out our Volkswagen Touareg overview to see the most problematic years, worst problems and most recently reported complaints with the Touareg. 2004 - 2023 TrueDelta. The 2008 Touareg had a total of 7 complaints at CarComplaints.com and 68 problems at CarProblemZoo.com. Volkswagens singular position among diesels has paid off for the companys certified pre-owned sales numbers. The 2012 Volkswagen Touareg got a bit of a redesign this model year with the removal of the low-range transfer case, which helped eliminate around 300 pounds from the weight to create a lighter ride. The 2015 Touareg is another solid choice. Despite the reduction of optional features, this vehicle provides extraordinary performance and adds a standard wood interior trim and Bluetooth. I got the car for about $14,500 out the door, and new it was $29,000, I think. He estimates the engine is good for 300,000 to 400,000 miles, although he suspects he will go through two or three transmissions in that time. Its the Touaregs standard equipment list thats impressive, though, and the reason for its substantial starting price. And it will come with a massive discount. The 4.2-liter V8 puts out 310 hp and 302 lb-ft of . This list includes 2006 Volkswagen Touareg, 2008 Volkswagen Touareg 2 and more. Also sometimes the Glowplug light turns on after a start in the morning, and have the odd NOX sensor check engine light come on. When looking for our new car, we looked and drove several, including the 4runner, Q5 and X5. Curious how the 2023 Taos compares to other years? Volkswagen dealers generally buy the cars at auction then put the fixed diesels through the certified pre-owned program, changing fluids and replacing iffy parts. Various electrical issues were widely reported as well as widespread complaints about a tire pressure monitoring system that would display warning messages and beep repeatedly despite the tires being fine. Just beware of various concerns owners have cited with their models before you buy. Smooth ride. Recall: Dodge Durango Rear Spoilers Could Fall Off, read stories from drivers who praise our work. Although the 2005 Volkswagen Touareg has the most overall complaints, we rate the 2012 model year as worse because of other possible factors such as higher repair cost or more problems at lower mileage. 2007 Volkswagen Touareg specs #9 in 2017 Luxury Midsize SUVs. Worst Reported Volkswagen Problems #1: Grinding Noise From Transmission 2019 Jetta Average Cost to Fix: $26,000 Average Mileage: 14,000 miles #2: Oil Sludge Resulting In Engine Failure 2002. #night #drive #vwtouareg #volkswagen #vw, A post shared by Volkswagen (@volkswagen) on Apr 3, 2020 at 8:12am PDT. They get good warranties, Mr. Heilbraun said. Search by price, view certified pre-owned Touaregs, filter by color and much more. The 2002 Touareg V6 TDI has gained a reputation for being the most basic model of Volkswagen Touareg, but it is the one that is most available and is the most commonly purchased model of Volkswagon Touareg. Steering lock/immobilizer triggered for no reason. These issues, according to Car Complaints, have to do with the cars tensioner. The Volkswagen Touareg 2008 did just that. Nearly three years after Volkswagen started its buyback program, the automaker said it had approximately 100,000 of these diesels left to sell, after which it will abandon diesel cars in the American market. Others complained of window malfunctions and phantom suspension noises. I was looking for a car that got decent gas mileage, said Sid Heilbraun, a nurse in Asheville, N.C., who replaced a Lexus SUV that was kind of a gas hog. His friends suggested he look at a VW diesel. 2012. Routine maintenance, most wear items, recalls, and problems fixed with just a reflash or warning light reset are not included. According to Car Complaints, some owners of the 2007 Volkswagen Touareg may run into some severe and costly engine issues. Volkswagen is celebrating 20 years of the Touareg with the Touareg "EDITION 20". Thats why when the owners saw the repair bill, they were so shocked as the average repair price for this issue was about $6,900. Unlike most car-derived SUVs the first-generation Touareg was an impressive off-roader. Worst Volkswagen Touareg Problems #1: Tdi Failures 2012 Touareg Average Cost to Fix: $7,000 Average Mileage: 0 mi #2: Engine & Epc Light On 2007 Touareg Average Cost to Fix: $6,900 Average. Consumer Scores For Best Volkswagen Touareg Years. In 2015, the United States government said VW was in violation of the Clean Air Act after it had used defeat devices in its diesel vehicles to cheat on pollution tests. Previously we had a Ford Explorer and a Toyota Highlander. With mechanic every 10-15 weeks. That owner said that while driving, their 2010 Touareg simply lost power. Owners reported their Touareg leaked gas and they noticed a strong smell of gasoline coming from the vehicle. The problem that seems to have been reported the most is one regarding a loud noise erupting from under the car. Be sure to vote so that your opinion is represented. For that price, you'd get a 3.6-liter V6 producing 280 horsepower and 266 lb-ft of torque sending power . Dealers are eager to get the diesels before the stockpile runs out. One 2015 Touareg owner on Car Complaints, unfortunately, suffered the worst-case scenario for this issue. If you are looking for a heavy-duty vehicle that can do the dirty work while still looking regal and elegant, the 2004 Touareg V10 TDI is a good option for you. Owners reported that the car smelt of gas which was due to gas leaking from the vehicle. Would have bought another Toureg if they had come out with the same model.